Transcript

0:00
Hi, welcome to the Christian point with Zack and Linda McConnell. And today what we’re gonna be talking about is, is the church made up of perfect people? And so we’re gonna be talking about the church. And is the church just full of perfect people? Over my life? I’ve been a member of a few different churches, and I’ve had a lot of people say at different times, well, your church is full of hypocrites. And I’m normally like, Yeah, I mean, there’s been a time when I’ve been a hypocrite in my life right? Now, that’s certainly not the goal. The goal is to not be a hypocrite. But let’s just talk about the church. And is the church made of perfect people? Or is it made up of hypocrites? And let’s just start talking about what is the church? So is that something to think about? What if someone asked you what is the church? And today I’m here with my husband, Zack McConnell.

0:53
Hi, everyone. Yeah,

0:55

We’re here in Texas. And I have new rose bushes that have started blooming and they are gorgeous. I have these double pink rose bushes, and they are really showing off right now. So stay with us. And we’ll have this discussion on perfect people in the church. On the Christian point.

1:11
Welcome to the Christian point podcast, where we’re all about growing your relationship with God. As lifelong Christian believers, your hosts, Zack and Linda McConnell explore topics that affect your world. Together, they are relearning and redirecting our path as we walk through struggles hangups, sins and purpose. The Christian point is a lively discussion that will help equip you with tools provide focus and encouragement from a biblical perspective. Always remember, Christ is the point. Now here are your hosts, Zack and Linda,

1:46
welcome to the Christian point. Thank you so much for listening today. And we look at God’s word, and we take today’s hot topics, and we’re going to be talking about a topic of perfection in the church and hypocrisy.

1:59
Yelena, the word Greek word Ecclesia means people who have been called out from a life of worldliness in into a real life of a relationship with God. Additionally, it’s used in the New Testament. And it really means an assembly, a group of people that are called out like in Acts 19, the word is used as an assembly, it’s a group of people that are assembled together, people are called out of a sinful world, in their transformed into God’s kingdom on earth. In Colossians, 113, it says, For he has rescued us from the domination of darkness, and brought us into the Kingdom of the Sun he loves. So it is a group of people call it out. But those people are called out from the world because they are Christians. And then they’re added to the church, and those that were added were saved. So, you know, we need to realize that church is not a building, it’s not a place you go to just on Sunday mornings at a prescribed time at a certain hour. The churches people in we need to always realize that we the people are the church, and you go from being a loss person to be an added to the church. And when that happens, you automatically become perfect. Right? You have no. Right? You know, exactly, of course, not.

3:24
Exactly. Now, just like that, you’re perfect, right? And then everyone’s just striving every day to do the very best that they can, is the reality of it. And when you look at the book first, it reminds us when you’re Christians, you’re gonna mess up, you know, but you strive to be as seamless as possible and do the right thing as best as possible. But there’s just times when you’re gonna mess up.

3:49
Yeah, I think the real problem comes in when people feel they’re perfect. And when they feel like they look down on others, right, or they begin to judge people, right? And no one wants to go to a place in associate where they feel like they’re being judged all the time. And we have to get out of the judging business. That’s not our place. That’s God’s place. And you know, you when you become a Christian, you do not automatically come up out of the water. And for the rest of your life, you’re perfect. That hadn’t happened. It we still have temptation, you know, and and so, when you come up out of that water, you’re gonna be fighting temptation each day. You’re not a perfect person, but you’re made perfect in Christ, but we have to always work at it. We have to strive against those negative and evil things. I mean, we’ve talked about this even earlier episode about people aren’t perfect, right? You know, every person that is a Christian, you think about it. What Peter? Peter, what he did was he denied Jesus. Exactly. And he said Lord, no, not you. In Matthew 16, and Jesus toe, Peter, Get behind Me, Satan. That’s right. So through all the New Testament, there’s times and even in the Old Testament where you’ll see examples of people who weren’t God’s children, yet they still struggle with a lot of different stuff.

5:19
Yes, absolutely. And I heard it from someone say, literally, the Bible is like this collection of different people from different lifestyles and different backgrounds, who’ve all messed up, and they all needed God. Like throughout the whole thing. It’s not like there’s stories in the Bible that are of these perfect people. The good stories are the people who aren’t perfect. Like some people had a speech problem. And some people were nervous, some people were afraid. They messed up in their sins. Some of them had sexual sins that were ongoing. And there’s all kinds of different sins, but yet God was so patient with them.

5:58
Yeah, like in First Corinthians, the in enrollments just about all the epistles, right? They’re addressing problems or issues or some something, some kind of shortcoming. Right, you know, especially in First Corinthians. Well, there was a lot of problems that were addressed in that book. Those are members of God’s church. But they’re imperfect people. You mentioned Peter, and later on his life, he still made mistakes. And Paul had to confront him face to face because he was taking part in something that call Well, that’s something like racism. You know, in Galatians, chapter two, you have Peter who is eating with the Gentiles. And then some of the guys come in, and some of the other Jewish people in Jewish Christian show up, and they try to show up the GDSs. And Peter withdraws himself. He’s like, Whoa, no, no, no, no. I mean, Paul says, In what Paul said to his face, can you imagine that being Peter and can you imagine others like Barnabas, who was there? And you have Peter doing this? And Paul, standing up to Peter, being there with two apostles are in it’s a confrontation confrontation. And it’s things about it, too, that you see how Peter, like Paul rebukes him. And Peter took it. From what we understand he didn’t fight, he just basically recognized what was going on. It was like, Wow, I’m being a hypocrite. In Galatians, two, Peter was being a hypocrite. He was playing the role, right? And that’s what Greeks used the word hypocrite for, and they used it for actors.

7:36
And that’s exactly right. They put on a face. So basically, that’s the word they used for stage actors who were wearing a mask. And yeah, that’s really what it was. And that’s what great culture use this word for. So with Peter Paul rebukes him, what he’s basically saying is, look, you’re acting like you’re a Christian, but you’re actually underneath the mask something else. You’re playing an actor, because you’re not really acting like what you’re saying, you’re a Christian, but you’re not really acting like it. So Paul rebukes him. And what does Peter do? Well, he repents, right? Yeah. And later, you’ve got him calling Paul, his beloved brother, you know, he didn’t say, Well, Paul, You embarrassed me. And I’m now angry. So that’s the takeaway from this is, even though sometimes our most trusted leaders will do things that they need to change, and the way we handle them, and the way we handle ourselves and treat each other needs to be based upon what this person does, once they see what they’ve done wrong. And once they recognize that, and how do we react to that? Do they actually change? Or do they continue doing the same thing? So it’s not that you’re going to be looking at an institution full of perfect people? You said, Well, what happens when you first become a Christian? Well, one of the things that first happened to me when I first became a Christian, I wasn’t instantly perfect. And I’m still not perfect. But I became a lot more aware of my imperfections. And I suppose that was the biggest change. And then I knew what I was doing wrong. I knew that those thoughts I were having and how they were not appropriate. And like maybe I felt more anger about some things than I should have felt. So becoming a Christian is about recognizing those imperfections and then starting to work on them. And it’s not that you’re instantly different.

9:38
You know, I mean, that’s brilliant. You’re exactly right, Linda, and you think about it, humans who wrote the Bible, right, right. Do you think that they would have included all of these character flaws? I mean, let’s be honest. Okay. If I was writing a book about myself, maybe I’d include a lot of dumb things and dumb stuff that I’ve done, but it’s kind of embarrassing. Most you months when they write a book, they talk about the great things in their life. And kind of gloss over that. Yeah, you know, the things that we don’t want to always remember, or we want to remember better than they were. And when you look at the Bible, you mentioned the Old Testament, New Testament people made a lot of mistakes. There’s going to be people that maybe have their nose up in the air, and they might think that they’re better. But at the end of the day, no one deserves Jesus, not at all right? I didn’t deserve Jesus, no more than you deserve him. And so I couldn’t, we messed up there in the church, and the one church that Jesus built, we still struggle. And it gives us hope that God is patient with us, that Jesus is there for us in we we read this, that the inspiration from the Holy Spirit, but the message of Jesus was written, and just hang on to that. I mean, you’ve heard this quote many times, and I remember saying it, if there was a perfect church, either they wouldn’t let me in, or I’d ruin it. Yeah. And I mean, it’s true. If we want a perfect church, I think would have some way to find a ruin it.

11:12
Well, absolutely. So in the New Testament Church, that’s what we’re talking about. It wasn’t perfect. So now, that doesn’t mean that we have this attitude of oh, well, we’re going to sin. So we might as well just not even try now. We’re supposed to always grow and perfect ourselves. So I said, the reason I’m a member of this church is not because of the other members, right? I’m not a member of the church, because I think I’m going to never be hurt, right? I might as well be at this church. And there might be some hypocrites in it. But I’m not going to leave the church because this guy over here is a hypocrite. And let’s just say I’m at church, and some guy does something really awful. I mean, to me, Well, I’m not going to leave the church because of that guy. I am there to worship Jesus, right. And it is the Church that Jesus shed his blood for in Acts 20, verse 28, and to care for the Church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. And yeah, church is more like a place we come together for that spiritual healing, right? Yeah, it is full of people who are trying to fight against their temptations and their shortcomings. And they’re trying to find ways to overcome them. And for the most part, everybody that comes there, in some sense, wants to be more like Jesus. And there are some people that come in, who are intentionally plotting and planning to try to take advantage of people, you know, there’s charltons and whatnot, and people that are trying to make gain off of others, because they see an opportunity through religion to create some kind of scheme or to con people. You know, that happens, that’s real. But for the most part, your average congregation every day, there’s just going to be people there that have flaws. And they know they have flaws. And we all know each other’s flaws. We get to know each other well, especially if you’re involved in small group and, and volunteer at the church, you find these things out. But that’s why we’re all there. We’re not there, because we’re perfect people. We’re there because we have the things that we know that we need help with. And you know, that’s the point you have to remember to keep that perspective. And the church is not supposed to be for perfect people. It’s for people to come seeking perfection, so they can try to learn how to be better in Christ.

13:36
You look throughout the New Testament, in the passage I have pulled up here is Mark chapter two, and a look at Mark in chapter two, verse 16, through 17. And listen to what Jesus says. Because when the scribes and the Pharisees saw him eating, with the tax collectors in the centers, they said to the disciples, how is it that he eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners? They’re like, why is he hanging out with those people, right? To listen to Jesus’s response. And then we can apply this in the church, verse 17, When Jesus heard it, he said to them, those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I didn’t come here to call the righteous, no, no one is righteous, no, not one. All right now, Romans three and 23, we’ve all sinned, and fallen short, continually. It doesn’t say that we’ve seen in fallen short in the past. It says, we’ve all sinned and fallen short. So Jesus says, Look, I didn’t here come here to call the righteous, those self righteous people. I came to call sinners to repentance. John the Baptist whenever people came to him and basically said, they had no sin. John was like, Well, I’m not baptizing you because you don’t think you have any problems. And that’s the hardest thing. Life is getting us as Christians and non Christians to realize you need a savior.

15:06
Absolutely. I mean, we’re all one in Christ, we’re now buried with him. And you know, we’re not on different levels, like we’re all one together with Jesus as the head. And we’re going through the Book of Revelations. And whenever they pointed out all the good and the bad things about the seven churches, you know, it’s just really interesting, because everyone had some good stuff, and some bad stuff. And some lost their first love. And we talked about that could be even evangelizing. And they’ve loved God so much. But then they just stopped maybe sharing Jesus with people. And that reminds me in Ephesians, I talked about the idea of a body and how we all are to grow together in that to be the purpose of we become this functional working together in unity Bodhi, that becomes mature. And then it takes on that fullness, and in Ephesians, 413, the idea of growing up into him and all things. And then in Ephesians, 415, yeah, that goes right along into what we’re all little pieces as something that’s coming together and learning how to work together, and how to grow together. And to what point to represent Christ. Right. Well, to take on that image of him in our lives. And then to spread that to others. I mean, it’s a beautiful thing. It’s exactly right. It’s a family.

16:30
Well, that is a real family. And being in a church. It’s like that real spiritual family, maybe your friends or family leave you, but God’s there for you. And I love what you said. And like, at the end of the day, you know, if you did me wrong, I’m not there, worshiping God, because of all of y’all like me, I’m there because of Jesus, and how much he first loved me. So I’m able to go to love and love him back. And I’m there for him. So we’re going to run into those people that are bad or make mistakes. I just had a bad day. And maybe they need. And they talked about one of the reasons we go to church. And Hebrews 10 talks about it. What’s the purpose, purpose of us going to church? Okay, when we say church, it’s the people, I was thinking about Hebrews 1024, and 25. Specifically, let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up in meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing but encouraging one another. So we’re coming together, because we need to be encouraged and exhorted toward love and good works. It’s not an automatic thing that just happens, we have to digest the scriptures ourselves, we have to read them, or study them or hear them preach, to take them to heart. And we also need to have other people that are going to be there, nudging us along and constantly saying, Hey, we should go do this good work, or we should go serve. Right? This is somebody that you can do, to serve the community, and to the church.

18:19
Exactly. And we did attend on the Lord’s day, on Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when we’re commanded in First Corinthians 16, to come together. And there may be some mornings when I know in the past, I’ve been like, Man, I feel like I’m on cloud nine right now, I feel spiritually healthy. But then there’s others who are at that congregation. And they really need you to encourage them. And they need you there. Because like you have some people on cloud nine. But then there’s other times when you might be going through a really rough spot in your life. And sometimes you’ll hear sermons on that they’ll talk about singing and prayer and giving back and taking the Lord’s Supper and preaching. And maybe we don’t emphasize that enough. The fact that we need to fellowship is just as important. And we need to emphasize that and these verses, and the others like it speak to that fact. And that we have to have it if we’re going to be healthy as an individual, then as a body of believers, we must do that one for another, kind of like an immune system, you know, you have parts of the body that help to strengthen other parts of the body and protect and defend other parts of the body, that might be going through something that you’re not able to deal with all by yourself. But that’s what the whole church does. And it’s designed to do and it’s to function as a body. And so I may have something that I’m able to do and provide as a service towards you. And that’s going to help you to overcome that issue that you’re dealing with. But you wouldn’t have that if you didn’t have that fellow share price. So it’s really important for us to come together to stay spiritually healthy.

20:05
And you’re exactly right. I mean, there are times when you need to be encouraged by others. And I love that we’re not supposed to be an island. And I remember back in my teens, and I was about to be baptized, and I just remembered things like, I’m just doing this because I want to be in Jesus’s church, and God will add me to it and wash away my sins. I wasn’t perfect after that moment, just like you said, it’s an everyday challenge. I’m going to try to do better. And I’m going to let go of that sin and work at being better each and every day each and every moment.

20:43
Exactly. Well look at Galatians, six, one to two, right? If someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person, but do it gently. And whether that’s a temptation that they’re struggling with, or whether that’s just, they’re going through some kind of depression, because maybe they’ve lost a loved one. And they just need encouragement, and you need someone to help push you through. And that’s what we’re all here for. And that’s why we come together. And we’re part of that body. And anyway, the point, and six is to bear one another’s burdens, right? We’re here to help one another on that path. And who wouldn’t need that help? If we were all perfect people, then we would need that. So the fact is that we are imperfect people, and God has designed an institution for you. And yeah, that’s the church.

21:37
Yeah, you know, I also think it’s important to mention that this is Jesus’s church, in his church belongs to all people. So it’s important just to stick with him stick with what he designed, because there’s nothing better than that, what he made the church to be. And even though people will like to confuse stuff, God made things simple. You just look back, you see this beautiful thing that he prophesied, that’s coming, which is the church, it makes me comforted inside. And he did that, to know that I have a support team, and that we’re not perfect people. But we all need spiritual doctrine of some sort, right? Absolutely. Jesus talked about that. He said, he came here to seek after those who are sick, the healthy don’t need a doctor. But he can receive those who are sick in Matthew 920 13.

22:31
Right? Well, I think thanks when we talk about God’s will, and God’s desire. And I also think about the devil too, because the devil is so sly and sneaky, the way he works. And there’s a lot of people out there who’d say, Well, you don’t really need to have a church community, right. And there’s that idea of joining a church, but you know, you’re added to the church. And whenever you’re saved, you’re added to that church. So whatever your attitude, the church, you’re saved. You can’t have one without the other. And there’s a lot of people there that this idea in modern religion and Christianity that sometimes it’s, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s Christianity, but it’s not biblical. And where they say, Well, I just want Jesus, I want to be saved, but I really don’t want to be a member of a church. Well, you can’t do that. They’re interconnected. And God says, when you’re saved, you are added to the church. Now think about this. The devil doesn’t want you to understand that because he wants you to think I can be saved, and I don’t need to go to an assembly with the Lord’s church. I don’t get to know other people. And yeah, look at Hebrews 1024 and 25. And it says, you’re supposed to encourage one another and exhort one another, right? Well, if I’m the devil, I don’t want you doing all that. I want you to skip the service. I don’t want the church staff to give you a call. Hey, man, are you doing okay? What’s going on? Well, I don’t want that. If I’m the devil, I want you to be on an island. I want you to say, You know what, I’m just going to stay home and I’m not going to worry about it. Do you think you can do that all by yourself? Yeah, well, what then what happens? Well, if you look at Hebrews chapter 10, these people in verse 25, are forsaking the assembly. And that means they were willfully abandoning Christianity. And there are people there were Jews, they had become Christians, and they were leaving Christianity because of persecution and other things. But they were leaving and look at what happens.

24:42
They go to verse 26, and 29. These people abandon Christianity. And this can be the same thing today for anybody. If you’re a Christian, and you abandon Christianity, abandoning Jesus, you can fall away, right? Listen to this passage verses 26 For if we the church of Christians, if we sin willfully, after we’ve received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins. You had salvation from your sins. You abandon Christianity in sin willfully and don’t repent, you don’t have that anymore. Keep reading, go to verse 29. Of how much worse punishment? What’s worse than death? What’s worse than physical death? Spiritual death? And here’s how much worse the punishment of spiritual death do you suppose can be? Here’s what you do. When you leave Christian Christianity, here’s what you do. You trample the Son of God underfoot, and you stomp on Jesus. That’s what he’s saying, You’re trampling the Son of God underfoot, count the blood of the covenant, and whose blood is that? It’s Jesus’s blood by which we had been sanctified. And it also says, and insulted the Spirit of Christ. This guy is not a person who’s never been saved. He was saved in he had a sacrifice for sins. He’s been sanctified by the blood of the covenant, by Jesus’s blood, and he tramples all over it. That’s what leaving Christianity is. And if I’m the evil one, you’ll Satan, I want you to think, can’t do that. And you can never fall away. But the fact is, you can fall away.

26:28
Absolutely. And we’re talking about this idea of separating, and think that you can do it all by yourself. And that’s really a divide and conquer from the standpoint of the devil’s tactics. And it’s just really boils down to an attitude of pride. And it’s the opposite of what we really should be doing. We have to have humility. And we see that over and over in the parable where Jesus is speaking about the to man, and there was a Pharisee. And he was sitting there feeling he was superior and bragging about himself. And his prayers, were showing his superiority. And he comes to the temple and prays, while the other one is a tax collector, and that’s in Luke 1810 to 14. And what was so interesting, this was my daily devotion today, and I just thought that was great. That all landed the day we’re doing the podcast, God’s great. Well, there’s this tax collector, and he says, Have mercy on me. And I know that I’m a sinner, that God gives more grace. And you say, God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble, and Submit yourselves therefore to God, and resist the devil, and he will flee from you

27:36
know, Luke 18. And that’s a good story. Those guys are both in the temple. They’re both children of God. One is a hypocrite, and he thinks he’s better. Lord, thank you for not making me like other men, right? We need to be careful that we don’t pray like that. Thank you for making me not like other men, in a way he’s judging. And you know, I’m not in the judging business. That’s why it’s domain. Yeah. And then you have the tax collector, who the Jewish people would look down upon he and he’s a traitor to Rome, and he’s like, Lord, have mercy on me because I’m a sinner. guy beats his breast, and he doesn’t even look up. He knows he’s not worthy. In which man is blessed by God, right? The humble one, right? That’s right. So don’t let a hypocritical person drive you away from God, because you’re not there for them. You’re there for Jesus. Jesus added you to His church. Ephesians says the church is the word of Christ. Ephesians five, the bride? Yeah, the bride of Christ. Can you imagine saying that you love Jesus, and you hate the church? You know how many times I’ve heard that people say they love Jesus, but hate the church. No, Jesus shed his blood. That’s how much he loves the church. He died for it. Right? You died for you and I? And sometimes, well, I really don’t like the church. Well, you might not like the people who treat you in specific actions that way. But you can’t not like the church because that is Jesus. Right? You can’t, you might not like how someone looks down on you or judge, you know, and again, we can’t let those people keep us from being a member of Jesus’s church,

29:19
right? Or pointing out the fact that hypocrisy does exist. And sometimes it exists. And intentionally because people are trying to work on themselves. They’re not perfect people. They’re trying to let the scriptures work on them. And we’re not saying that hypocrisy is a good thing itself. But we are saying sometimes you need to understand when you’re coming into a place to find healing. And there are some people that are trying to get better.

29:47
Yeah. So people say churches was a plan B It was an accident. And that’s nonsense. Listen to Ephesians 310 and 11 Ephesians chapter three, if you have your Bibles, verse 10. This is what God thinks about the church, to the intent of how the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the church, to the principalities and the powers, and in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Jesus Christ, our Lord’s Church is the tool by which the wisdom is going to be known. Absolutely. And I want you to listen closely, because this is important. We also must realize the church is not a building. It’s not an event that happens for an hour on Sunday morning. The church is much bigger than that. God says, to go teach and show my eternal purpose of what Jesus came to do to make the salvation of mankind possible. And when people come together to do that, that’s church.

30:51
Right? Absolutely. Well, we’re here we are in Ephesians, 415 16. Instead, speaking, the truth and love, we will grow to become at every respect the mature body of him, who is the head, that is Christ. For him, the whole body, the church joined and knit together by every supporting ligament grows and builds itself up in love as each part does. Its work.

31:17
That’s right, whether it’s the church itself as an institution, or whether it’s the individual members teaching, because God has given us orders to do so. God has chosen the church to be a way to give glory to himself, and to make known his wisdom and God Jesus to make known his wisdom, then we should support that. And we should want to be the members of it. Remember, if you go to a church, that’s a hypocritical people, than welcome to The Club. Absolutely. Because we should always be working, growing and improving. And remember, we are the church.

31:56
Right? Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the show today. So Zack, I’m going to thank everybody for joining us. We love you all. And we hope this message has spoke to you guys, and we’d love to hear from you. Please write a review, subscribe or share this podcast through Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or you can go to the Christian point.com.

32:14
And that’s the Christian point.com. Absolutely, thanks

32:19
so much to listening to the Christian point was asking Linda, and let us know your thoughts by leaving a review. And be sure to subscribe and share these episodes. And we’d love for you to check out our website, the Christian point.com You can make a donation, you can help spread this message all throughout the world. And we encourage you to leave your testimony and give us a review.

32:40
And guys, those reviews and likes are very important. It helps us to reach a lot more people. So yeah, but unlike us, give us five stars. Most importantly, share this podcast with someone that you love or someone you want to help grow their life in Christ.

32:55
Absolutely. And let us know if we can pray for you. God’s blessings and peace be with you. And remember, until next time, Christ is the point.

33:05
Thanks for listening to the Christian point. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, or visit us on the web at the Christian point.com. If you enjoyed the show, please share it with your friends on social media. Until next time, always remember Christ is the point

Transcribed by https://otter.ai